I am the pattern maker/garment developer/tech designer at a relatively small company. My company is about 50 years old and has just in the past year decided that they want to try and have standardized fit across products. I have been in the WEEDS measuring and experimenting with our existing product lines, researching other companies measurements, figuring out what target measurements for each size will be, making tweak after tweak after tweak...
There has been so much frustration from the marketing/merchandising people that this is taking so long, that there is not an easy answer to "what is an XL?" and "why doesn't this stretchy medium garment fit the same range of people as this rigid medium garment? and why can't you make it do that?"
I wish I could sit everyone down and make them listen to this.
As always, delighted when a new episode pops in to my feed. This one spoke to me in this particular moment.
Also pattern maker / grader / designer here. The Job is not that challenging if you are in the company of people that understand craft, proportion, and anatomy. We are not only in a post-literate, post-humanist world but a post-aesthetic, post-embodied-sentiment world. It’s not you. They are unskilled uneducated products of a flattened system, who think point of view, opinion, and informed critique are indistinguishable.
As someone who does this (grading), it is so much harder than anyone thinks. Do you have ASTM sizing to work from? You can then adjust based on your company “standards”. DM me if you want more.
We live in Columbus, Ohio, home of a well known fashion conglomerate, and they have always advertised locally for fit models of all genders. The ads are very specific about the height and body measurements required and the need to endure long hours for fittings. It pays well so back in the day, one of my sons tried it for a minute, but it wasn’t his cup of tea, quite a grueling job.
I work in the fashion industry and Brit was one of my fit models at PVH when i worked on Calvin Klein and also at Aeropostale. What a nice suprise to see her face pop up here.
When I am on the hunt for jeans my go to is Old Navy because they have plethora of sizes and styles. I just take stack into the dressing room and see what fits best. I do the same with Levi’s. There is such a good feeling when an article fits well. I feel empowered and content.
It's probably not well known but Old Navy was one of the first to really invest deeply in overhauling its approach to sizing. Unfortunately, they rolled it out in a big way and it failed spectacularly (combo of reasons but mainly pandemic timed to overinvesting in plus size inventory with an expectation that suddenly every plus size person in America would come buy, didn't give themselves time/infrastructure to rework the patterns based on real world feedback, etc). They had also stupidly made a big fanfare out of it and the failure in the business press hit hard, creating a cautionary tale for other retailers who dared to try this. Luckily, they didn't give up and instead evolved, and now they're whispered as having the best fit options for jeans among all body shapes. And, both Target and Walmart have followed suit with their own investments and experiments to try and improve fits on their house garment brands. It seems to be working. Now if the "fashion brands" would just take the hint and stop waiting for everyone to go on Ozempic so they don't have to change their ways.
That makes sense because Target has been my other go to but my luck finding the right fit is better with Old Navy. Good to know about Walmart, too. The other place friends find great jeans is Costco. I live in Columbus, Ohio, we have one store that does resell mid and plus size clothing from small brands at a fair price.
Avery — your podcast is one of my favorites. I've loved your work since the 99% Invisible days.
I recently started a Substack, and one of the topics I explore is how to find clothes for my GNC teenage daughter. The quest to find masculine-leaning clothing that actually fits a curvy female body has me scouring the internet and searching deep into fashion history and research. It turns out this is not a new problem.* There are some remarkable brands working to solve it.**
Your fit model episode got me thinking about these brands — specifically: what does the design process look like when a brand was founded explicitly BECAUSE standard sizing doesn't work for their customers? The founders of these companies have extraordinary stories, and their products genuinely change people's lives. They're living proof of everything you explore in "Articles of Interest" about the power of clothing.
An episode about clothing design for the GNC and trans communities feels like such a natural fit for your show. I'd be first in line to listen. ❤️
Thank you for creating such high-quality, fascinating stories.
*Reilly, A., Catalpa, J. M., & McGuire, J. K. (2019). Clothing fit issues for trans people. Fashion Studies, 1(2), 1–21. https://doi.org/10.38055/FS010201
**Reddy-Best, K. L., Streck, K., & Gordon, J. F. (2022). Visibly queer- and trans-fashion brands and retailers in the twenty-first century: The production and distribution of binders, packers, underwear, lingerie, and bras. Dress, 48(1), 33–53. https://doi.org/10.1080/03612112.2021.1967606
Fascinating that they expend so much time, energy, and money to make sure garments fit the one person with the exact measurements they want (which turns out to be an extremely rare set of measurements). That doesn't really help the consumer, whose measurements are going to differ (sometimes wildly). Avery, if you could never be a fit model because you have 17'' shoulders, how are you supposed to find a shirt that fits? I almost never wear woven shirts anymore, unless I sew them myself. I blend sizes when I cut out the fabric, in order to get a good fit, because I have only slightly broad shoulders.
Thank you so much for this episode. You may not know it but there are people all over the world in various aspects trying to work out a global solution. But traction has been hard, for many of the reasons you stated. I have an online working group that meets every two weeks to talk about how to incorporate body data into garment design and manufacturing, and the IEEE has been working for years on evolving standards to account for our new world of 3D scanning and utilization of body data. The ASTM standards for body measurements/sizing are woefully out of date, and have in fact expired (there's a group of volunteers who are just now starting to work on them). I recently went to a conference at the University of Arkansas where they have insane equipment including a motion scanner that captures changes to body shapes in movement, potentially limiting the need for fit models to flex and bend.
It's slow work, but it's fascinating and is actually moving along bit by bit. Every collaboration, every dialogue, and every podcast like yours that helps unpack it helps a lot! So again, thank you.
Also side note: I have huge respect for unspun and their journey - I started out at the same time they did, going after the on-demand, made to measure ecomm play, and we have both gone through different pivots. I'm so glad they're still in the game and inspiring smarter approaches to waste/fit in garment manufacturing.
I worked as a grader and assistant designer at a sportswear company in St. Louis while I was a student in fashion school a *cough* few decades ago. I was skinny. We had a FIT model,she was great. One day a buyer came in without an appointment and wanted to see them on a person, which to me seemed like a smart thing to ask. Our model wasn’t available so the designer asked me to model the clothes for the buyer. I chose a sample size that fit me. The owner took a look and said, “bring me a real woman”. So I learned that personal preference is a big part of sizing. This guy preferred a curvier “fit”.
I am in the throws of starting my own climbing wear business and with a small budget, and essentially no industry experience, figuring out how to grade my patterns has been an utter journey, and I'm trying to find a path away from the traditional sizes in Australia, but don't want the people who want to buy the pants to be confused about what sizes they should buy. I don't have any solution yet, just trying to educate and have a good size chart is all I have come up with so far!
Oh my goddd loved listening to this.
I am the pattern maker/garment developer/tech designer at a relatively small company. My company is about 50 years old and has just in the past year decided that they want to try and have standardized fit across products. I have been in the WEEDS measuring and experimenting with our existing product lines, researching other companies measurements, figuring out what target measurements for each size will be, making tweak after tweak after tweak...
There has been so much frustration from the marketing/merchandising people that this is taking so long, that there is not an easy answer to "what is an XL?" and "why doesn't this stretchy medium garment fit the same range of people as this rigid medium garment? and why can't you make it do that?"
I wish I could sit everyone down and make them listen to this.
As always, delighted when a new episode pops in to my feed. This one spoke to me in this particular moment.
omg THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE!!!! I am so in awe of how you do this work!
i know this is because i am a nerd-- i truly love it!
Also pattern maker / grader / designer here. The Job is not that challenging if you are in the company of people that understand craft, proportion, and anatomy. We are not only in a post-literate, post-humanist world but a post-aesthetic, post-embodied-sentiment world. It’s not you. They are unskilled uneducated products of a flattened system, who think point of view, opinion, and informed critique are indistinguishable.
literally this. i design/make shoes, frequently for apparel companies who refuse to believe shoes are made in a different way than apparel.
the disregard for craft is staggering.
As someone who does this (grading), it is so much harder than anyone thinks. Do you have ASTM sizing to work from? You can then adjust based on your company “standards”. DM me if you want more.
yes! will message you. figuring out what the company want the standards to be has been the hardest part....
We live in Columbus, Ohio, home of a well known fashion conglomerate, and they have always advertised locally for fit models of all genders. The ads are very specific about the height and body measurements required and the need to endure long hours for fittings. It pays well so back in the day, one of my sons tried it for a minute, but it wasn’t his cup of tea, quite a grueling job.
Fascinating
Hey lady! Great to see you here. I don’t have the will power to be a fit model.
I work in the fashion industry and Brit was one of my fit models at PVH when i worked on Calvin Klein and also at Aeropostale. What a nice suprise to see her face pop up here.
ah! We love @Brit Dunlop!
When I am on the hunt for jeans my go to is Old Navy because they have plethora of sizes and styles. I just take stack into the dressing room and see what fits best. I do the same with Levi’s. There is such a good feeling when an article fits well. I feel empowered and content.
It's probably not well known but Old Navy was one of the first to really invest deeply in overhauling its approach to sizing. Unfortunately, they rolled it out in a big way and it failed spectacularly (combo of reasons but mainly pandemic timed to overinvesting in plus size inventory with an expectation that suddenly every plus size person in America would come buy, didn't give themselves time/infrastructure to rework the patterns based on real world feedback, etc). They had also stupidly made a big fanfare out of it and the failure in the business press hit hard, creating a cautionary tale for other retailers who dared to try this. Luckily, they didn't give up and instead evolved, and now they're whispered as having the best fit options for jeans among all body shapes. And, both Target and Walmart have followed suit with their own investments and experiments to try and improve fits on their house garment brands. It seems to be working. Now if the "fashion brands" would just take the hint and stop waiting for everyone to go on Ozempic so they don't have to change their ways.
That makes sense because Target has been my other go to but my luck finding the right fit is better with Old Navy. Good to know about Walmart, too. The other place friends find great jeans is Costco. I live in Columbus, Ohio, we have one store that does resell mid and plus size clothing from small brands at a fair price.
Such a good episode, i worked with Brit for many years. I was delighted to hear her voice, she’s a phenomenal fit model.
Avery — your podcast is one of my favorites. I've loved your work since the 99% Invisible days.
I recently started a Substack, and one of the topics I explore is how to find clothes for my GNC teenage daughter. The quest to find masculine-leaning clothing that actually fits a curvy female body has me scouring the internet and searching deep into fashion history and research. It turns out this is not a new problem.* There are some remarkable brands working to solve it.**
Your fit model episode got me thinking about these brands — specifically: what does the design process look like when a brand was founded explicitly BECAUSE standard sizing doesn't work for their customers? The founders of these companies have extraordinary stories, and their products genuinely change people's lives. They're living proof of everything you explore in "Articles of Interest" about the power of clothing.
An episode about clothing design for the GNC and trans communities feels like such a natural fit for your show. I'd be first in line to listen. ❤️
Thank you for creating such high-quality, fascinating stories.
*Reilly, A., Catalpa, J. M., & McGuire, J. K. (2019). Clothing fit issues for trans people. Fashion Studies, 1(2), 1–21. https://doi.org/10.38055/FS010201
**Reddy-Best, K. L., Streck, K., & Gordon, J. F. (2022). Visibly queer- and trans-fashion brands and retailers in the twenty-first century: The production and distribution of binders, packers, underwear, lingerie, and bras. Dress, 48(1), 33–53. https://doi.org/10.1080/03612112.2021.1967606
Fascinating that they expend so much time, energy, and money to make sure garments fit the one person with the exact measurements they want (which turns out to be an extremely rare set of measurements). That doesn't really help the consumer, whose measurements are going to differ (sometimes wildly). Avery, if you could never be a fit model because you have 17'' shoulders, how are you supposed to find a shirt that fits? I almost never wear woven shirts anymore, unless I sew them myself. I blend sizes when I cut out the fabric, in order to get a good fit, because I have only slightly broad shoulders.
Thank you so much for this episode. You may not know it but there are people all over the world in various aspects trying to work out a global solution. But traction has been hard, for many of the reasons you stated. I have an online working group that meets every two weeks to talk about how to incorporate body data into garment design and manufacturing, and the IEEE has been working for years on evolving standards to account for our new world of 3D scanning and utilization of body data. The ASTM standards for body measurements/sizing are woefully out of date, and have in fact expired (there's a group of volunteers who are just now starting to work on them). I recently went to a conference at the University of Arkansas where they have insane equipment including a motion scanner that captures changes to body shapes in movement, potentially limiting the need for fit models to flex and bend.
It's slow work, but it's fascinating and is actually moving along bit by bit. Every collaboration, every dialogue, and every podcast like yours that helps unpack it helps a lot! So again, thank you.
Also side note: I have huge respect for unspun and their journey - I started out at the same time they did, going after the on-demand, made to measure ecomm play, and we have both gone through different pivots. I'm so glad they're still in the game and inspiring smarter approaches to waste/fit in garment manufacturing.
I worked as a grader and assistant designer at a sportswear company in St. Louis while I was a student in fashion school a *cough* few decades ago. I was skinny. We had a FIT model,she was great. One day a buyer came in without an appointment and wanted to see them on a person, which to me seemed like a smart thing to ask. Our model wasn’t available so the designer asked me to model the clothes for the buyer. I chose a sample size that fit me. The owner took a look and said, “bring me a real woman”. So I learned that personal preference is a big part of sizing. This guy preferred a curvier “fit”.
I am in the throws of starting my own climbing wear business and with a small budget, and essentially no industry experience, figuring out how to grade my patterns has been an utter journey, and I'm trying to find a path away from the traditional sizes in Australia, but don't want the people who want to buy the pants to be confused about what sizes they should buy. I don't have any solution yet, just trying to educate and have a good size chart is all I have come up with so far!